Curse

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 20, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

I think what you aren't taking into consideration is OTHER balancing factors other than simply DPS. A dervish's DPS does not HAVE to beat out a scythe sin, so long as the Dervish has -something- over them, which could be aquired through small nerfs to sins, through CA.

In the hypothetical situation that Dervishes, Warriors, and Assassins all did the same ammount of DPS, there's still the factor of Warriors having more base armor and AP, and Assassins having More armor and Attack speed through CA. I'd venture to say that a dervish doesn't have to beat out these classes in DPS as long as they have something else significant enough to compensate for it. It's just a different take on simply 'buffing dervish dps'

Ideally, I'd personally like to see Assassins have a lower AR while doing more DPS than dervishes, and Warrior's Endurance simply getting nerfed/changed a bit. The end result being that, while assassins deal more damage than dervishes, they are more fragile.

And the main thing I like about Enchantment juggling is it's different play style. It set the dervish apart from your average melee class, and that was interesting. Now they are forced to run builds that think and act like any other. Enchantment Juggling doesn't have to be the -best- option for dervishes.. just -an- option.

As much as I would love to see mysticism buffed in some way, I do advise against it, for the simple lack of PvE/PvP split for it (and the effect it might have on PvP). If they could split it, awesome.

P/D build out-DPSing isn't the point. It does provide party support and most importantly gives paragons something different other then throwing a spear and screaming "Save Yourself!" every 2 seconds.

Yelling @ Cats · Apr 20, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

In my opinion, the non-scythe skills need buffed.

Does anything actually think scythes are underpowered? The problem is...most other skills are terrible, or inconvenient...or both. The PBAoE's aren't worth the cost, the activation time, nor the aftercast delay. It just isn't worth giving up a scythe attack to do negligible damage (the scythe itself does more damage than most of the Dervish PBAoEs), and the secondary effects aren't worth a damn.

reaper with no name · Apr 20, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I think what you aren't taking into consideration is OTHER balancing factors other than simply DPS. A dervish's DPS does not HAVE to beat out a scythe sin, so long as the Dervish has -something- over them, which could be aquired through small nerfs to sins, through CA.

In the hypothetical situation that Dervishes, Warriors, and Assassins all did the same ammount of DPS, there's still the factor of Warriors having more base armor and AP, and Assassins having More armor and Attack speed through CA. I'd venture to say that a dervish doesn't have to beat out these classes in DPS as long as they have something else significant enough to compensate for it. It's just a different take on simply 'buffing dervish dps'

Ideally, I'd personally like to see Assassins have a lower AR while doing more DPS than dervishes, and Warrior's Endurance simply getting nerfed/changed a bit. The end result being that, while assassins deal more damage than dervishes, they are more fragile.

And the main thing I like about Enchantment juggling is it's different play style. It set the dervish apart from your average melee class, and that was interesting. Now they are forced to run builds that think and act like any other. Enchantment Juggling doesn't have to be the -best- option for dervishes.. just -an- option.

As much as I would love to see mysticism buffed in some way, I do advise against it, for the simple lack of PvE/PvP split for it (and the effect it might have on PvP). If they could split it, awesome.

You did read my post, right? Not just skimmed it? I've been saying all along that it's not a problem for assassins to do more damage than dervishes, so long as the dervish has something over the assassin as well.

And again, nerfing or changing WE without doing the same to zealous vow won't change a thing. Warriors would just spec into wind prayers and take that instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

P/D build out-DPSing isn't the point. It does provide party support and most importantly gives paragons something different other then throwing a spear and screaming "Save Yourself!" every 2 seconds.

Oh, no, I wasn't arguing that it wasn't good or useful. Heck, I'd like to see a dervish try to spam scythe skills while giving the entire party additional energy regen.

NerfHerder · Apr 20, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Ideally, I'd personally like to see Assassins have a lower AR while doing more DPS than dervishes, and Warrior's Endurance simply getting nerfed/changed a bit. The end result being that, while assassins deal more damage than dervishes, they are more fragile.

And the main thing I like about Enchantment juggling is it's different play style. It set the dervish apart from your average melee class, and that was interesting. Now they are forced to run builds that think and act like any other. Enchantment Juggling doesn't have to be the -best- option for dervishes.. just -an- option.

As much as I would love to see mysticism buffed in some way, I do advise against it, for the simple lack of PvE/PvP split for it (and the effect it might have on PvP). If they could split it, awesome.

I mostly agree with your stance on Assassins. I dont think they should do MORE DPS with a scythe. But more DPS with daggers, thats fine by me. I know I sound like a broken record but changing AoHM would fix all that. Maybe give Critical Agility a 25-50% block instead of AR. Seems that would be more in line with the agility part. After all, I love my Assassin too!

My derv is only 16 months old and never did much enchantment juggling, except maybe a Derv Bomber when im bored. I like the idea of Dervishes being an enchantment based melee. It would be nice to have some more incentive to actually use them. Even if Dervish enchantments get a hefty buff, they still still have the downside of being vulnerable to both caster and melee hate.

I share your concern with the mysticism buff. But with a small buff like myself and others suggested, only dervish enchanments are effected, I dont see a possible abuse in PvP, so no need to split it. They might want to split some of the PBAoEs if they are buffed. Also, putting Zealous Vow into Mysticism is a good idea. I think reaper suggested it. To me that makes sense, that way it cant be exploited, doesnt require a functionality change, and the player still has an option to take either Wind or Earth prayers or whatever they want.

Grim Lich · Apr 21, 2010, 01:57 AM // 01:57

For me, the first problem is the non maintainable IAS. I know for most people, it comes down to using Heart of Fury, but to be honest, I wouldn't mind if Pious Fury was maintainable too. Hell I wouldn't mind something like:

Pious Fury 5e 10r
Lose one enchantment. For 2...5 seconds, you attack 33% faster. If an enchantment was removed this stance lasts for 8...15 seconds.

Or something like that. That would be interesting and would promote more enchantment juggling.

Armor is no longer a concern for Dervishes as much, as they have Armor of Sanctity and Conviction (PvE) which both make up for the fact that the Dervish is 70AR.

The one thing Dervishes have over every class is Avatars, and they are not good enough to use them. Fun as they may be (Avatar of Lyssa with 16 Mysticism + 15 ScytheMastery Radiant Scythe is just too much fun, especially in PvP) they don't do anything too amazing.

Higurashi · Apr 21, 2010, 03:22 AM // 03:22

my opinion mysticism should be "For Every Rank In Mysticism You Attack 2% Faster"

reaper with no name · Apr 21, 2010, 01:08 PM // 13:08

That would be quite overpowered in PvP.

Abedeus · Apr 21, 2010, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

That would be quite overpowered in PvP.

I thought everyone agreed that Dervishes are awfully powerful in PvP?

NerfHerder · Apr 21, 2010, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I thought everyone agreed that Dervishes are awfully powerful in PvP?

Did you mean awful in PvP?

They serve a small niche in AB and maybe RA, but to be honest I never see many in PvP. We still have the "anything you can do, I can do better" scenerio when compared to other melee. Not to mention a N/A Necro bomber is better than a D/A Derv Bomber.

shoyon456 · Apr 22, 2010, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I thought everyone agreed that Dervishes are awfully powerful in PvP?

Go onto GW. Hit "B." Look for a high rank guild playing GvG/HA. See if they have a single Derv in their team. See if they win the match.

That should be some indication of how wrong you are.

Jair · Apr 22, 2010, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

Go onto GW. Hit "B." Look for a high rank guild playing GvG/HA. See if they have a single Derv in their team. See if they win the match.

Wounding Strike is OP'd, the rest of the class is just bad.

reaper with no name · Apr 22, 2010, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Guys? He was being sarcastic.

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 23, 2010, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xolombo

They may get a buff soon.

Says who?

12characters

Yelling @ Cats · Apr 23, 2010, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Says who?

12characters

Xolombo, apparently.

Catchphrase · Apr 23, 2010, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Actually a plausible method of making dervish viable in both PVE/PVP without revamping mysticism or PvE/PVP splitting of skills is reworking some of dervish's enchantment to require health sacrifice instead of energy. Additionally, for every foe affected by the PbAOE effects when the enchantment ends, the dervish loses specific amount of energy or health. This will balance out the buffed effects of dervish enchantments and the potential of its range of effect, discouraging the play style of "derv bombing" as a norm.

Morphy · Apr 23, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Dervishes need to be re-designed in order to be balanced, like all the non-core professions. I won't even start about PvE.

shoyon456 · Apr 23, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catchphrase

This will balance out the buffed effects of dervish enchantments and the potential of its range of effect, discouraging the play style of "derv bombing" as a norm.

Since when was derv bombing ever remotely effective or better than a necro bomber...?

NerfHerder · Apr 24, 2010, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Preliminary Skill Update Notes - 23 April 2010

"A few other balance issues are being worked on in parallel and will be included in the same build if they are testing well enough. These will NOT include major changes to the Dervish (and in particular scythes), non-“Imbagon” Paragons, and the smiting line for the Monk. All of those are things we’ve been considering for major updates of their own. None are far enough along to be a part of this update."

Is it just me or does nonimbagon paragon, sound like a change to "Save Yoursleves."

Even though I am a little disappointed there wont be any Dervish love this time around, I'm glad to see this thread and others did not fall on deaf ears. I would rather hear this news than to be kept in suspense.

Im guessing we wont see any changes for the Dervish until mid July at the earliest. O well, at least I can go dust off my mesmer now.

Morphy · Apr 24, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

People are mentioning "skill balance" and stuff that gets buffed till it breaks in one post. Guru is a site full with good people I herd?